Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. So today we are working again with our, element of compassion and leaning now on the second level of Dr. Gabor Maté's's five levels of compassion. All right, so you don't need to necessarily listen to these episodes in order, but last episode is helpful to get a better understanding of compassion and pain and suffering.
But certainly you could stay right here if you're [00:01:00] feeling it and it makes sense, you can always go back later or go back now if you rather. So today, again, we are talking about the second level of compassion, which is the compassion of understanding. Maté describes this as the next step that can come after we acknowledge suffering.
Someone's suffering, our own suffering. We see the suffering. We feel bad about it. We wish it were different. That's the ordinary human compassion that we talked about in last episode. Okay. And then in this level, We then work to understand it rather than just judge it, perhaps.An example that has been branded, I think, into so many of us has to do with depression.
So let's play with this. We are suffering. We feel bad about it. We wish it were different. We wish we weren't depressed. But instead of maybe getting curious or seeking to understand more [00:02:00] about that suffering, we might come to a quick judgment. Which is that we are weak. We're depressed because we're weak or we're broken.
We sometimes want that simple answer even if it is absolutely false. And with this compassion of understanding, we can brush those quick judgments aside and look deeper. What is going on? What are some of the contributors to my depression? What might make it worse? What feels good?What helps me?
We can get more curious, in a gentle way. And I like to think of it also as sort of this idea is that, we really move from what's wrong? To what happened? And we seek to understand it in a way that relieves our suffering.
I like that quick reframe takes us out of judgment into curiosity. It's a place where I think we can seek understanding.
Henry: You know, I, I, can't help but notice that [00:03:00] what we're talking about now might seem to run counter to what we just talked about in the last episode or what you hear sometimes from, from mindfulness teachers or therapists that, that we're often told that our problem is that we think, too much. And that thinking can turn a small hurt into a larger one, which I think is often the case.
But right now we're suggesting that we think more, but we're doing so specifically to try to come to a greater understanding of things. So you remember mindfulness doesn't mean that we turn our minds off. It means that we, we don't let those thoughts run rampant and create all kinds of problems.
We can, but we try to use the power, the skill of our mind, the complexity of it, for good in this case to understand [00:04:00] ourselves better. So it might sound like a paradox but I think it's just a reflection of the complexity, the elegance of the human mind. And also why it matters for us to grow in the ability to be aware of what's happening within our own minds.
So, bottom line is that we get to decide what we do with our minds. And when we choose to increase our awareness, when we grow in our understanding of what's going on inside of us, then we just are becoming more skilled and we can, we can harness that elegance and power of our minds. So with the example of depression, if you've ever been there, You know that in that moment, your mind is not very reliable.
Your thinking is not reliable. Your thoughts are distorted in some way. The emotions might be simply too strong [00:05:00] or too painful to just sit with them, like we often suggest for, for less powerful emotions. So, you got to work with it differently. You got to think about a different part of your mind.
And this is, I think, one of the most helpful things that can come from a mindfulness practice, which is to, to, recognize that there is this other level of our minds that's often referred to as the observer or the observing self, sometimes it's called the higher self, but it's good to have worked with it a little bit because if you wait until you really need it, it's hard to get the concept. But this is a really great example of how you can be compassionate to someone else and how you can give insight and healing to the both of you by using this, this power of the mind. I love the story that the [00:06:00] writer, Parker Palmer, has shared very publicly. I think he shared this on NPR or Speaking of Faith, where he talks very openly about his own depression. He described a very severe episode that he had years ago when he was somewhere in midlife and this episode went on for months and it was not responding to treatment. Very common experience, by the way. And during this very dark time for him, he had a lot of people come to his home. He was just so unable to function, so knocked off of his feet that he basically just stayed at home, oftentimes stayed in bed.
And, and people would come to him to try to support him, encourage him they might give him advice of things he could do to, feel better and get out of it. Sometimes they would encourage him to talk, thinking that that would be helpful. And a lot of [00:07:00] what people did, very well meaning, he just found It didn't work.
It might have even made him feel a little bit worse because he just couldn't do any of these things. But there was one friend that he talked about who came every week, didn't offer any advice, really didn't even make conversation with him. He just sat there, rubbed his feet, or just sat quietly and did absolutely nothing.
Aimee: Hmm.
Henry: At least if you looked at him, but what he did do was he gave his presence. He shared the gift of his non judging presence, which Parker found to be an absolute lifeline. This friend didn't judge him, didn't try to draw him out, didn't try to fix anything. He just became a silent witness to Parker's suffering [00:08:00] and a lifeline, like I said, that eventually helped to he helped, was able to follow that line out of the depression.
He did improve to function entirely well like his normal, beautiful, loving self again.
Aimee: I feel like you're bringing up this whole nother dimension of understanding too, that I'm not sure Maté talks about in this context or would agree with if I were to raise it up. But how, yeah, this, this compassion of understanding is not just like a journalist asking a row of questions. This isn't a game of 20 questions.
Sometimes the understanding comes in the solitude and in the presenceand it arises without being poked out. I think that's really beautiful. So there are [00:09:00] many paths to understanding, many ways of knowing, and that, oh, there's so many things I want to say now. Okay. We're going to try to stay on topic.
I love that you called that out, Henry. And I'm remembering an episode as well that we did,based on a quote, the author of Winnie the Pooh, A. A. Milne, Milne, I don't know how to say his name. Their name. but anyway, or it was attributed to an old Maine fisherman. I don't know. It's a funny little quote, but it says, "Sometimes I sits and thinks, sometimes I just sits."
I'll find that episode and link to it.So, This can look in a million different ways. We are a multitude of things. Understanding is multi dimensional. So let's talk about some practices though to build up these compassion muscles. One strategy to consider is something called compassionate or deep listening presented by Thich Nhat Hanh.
And I actually think this is more sits than thinks maybe. [00:10:00] So, interesting. Here's how Thich Nhat Hanh explains the practice: "You listen with only one purpose to help them empty their heart." So we just sits and we listen to help another or ourselves empty our heart.we can practice this with ourselves, I think.
And there's two big obstacles probably to compassionate listening that maybe we can hit on, one for listening to others, one for ourselves. So, I'll start with the obstacle of compassionate listening for others. 'Cause I have this obstacle. And it's listening to folks we disagree with. Right. We're in the heat of political season here in the U. S. and compassionate listening isn't modeled very often. I think it's easier to think that if we let someone talk and they spew out what we think are a bunch of falsehoods or ignorant stuff or whatever that we are [00:11:00] agreeing with them and that we have to set the record straight. We have to correct them.
We have to tell them how they are wrong and we are right. But the com this idea of compassionate listening is that we don't listen to correct. We listen to allow them to open up their heart.And the data is actually so clear here that this is effective. That when we listen, truly listen, and let someone feel comfortable to share, then connections are built. Good things are more likely to occur, obviously. like someone seeing how they might have it wrong or how we have it wrong. And so when we're shouting at each other or even with each other in an echo chamber, when nobody's actually listening, then it is impossible to understand.
Like our stress response is up. Right. We talked about this too, is the fear response is going. We just cannot open up to opportunity. and I know this is hard. I struggle with this. I've gotten [00:12:00] better, but it is a very effortful process for me still. Worth it, but effortful.And I think to anchor this, what has helped me when I try to remind myself what is true, no matter what, is that we are wired for compassion.
We all have it. We talked about this two episodes ago,but sometimes it gets pushed down. Fear takes over, all this other stuff gets piled on, and we need to do some work to reset ourselves, to empty our heart. We need to be vulnerable, suffer with, and really listen, to uncover our individual and collective compassion.
So I like how Thich Nhat Hanh puts this. This is a kind of his message and opportunity to practice deep listening and how it might shake out. I think this was really beautiful. So here it is: "We have wrong perceptions concerning ourselves and the other person. And that is the foundation for [00:13:00] conflict, war, and violence.
We should be able to say, dear friends, dear people, I know that you suffer a lot. I have not understood enough of your difficulties and suffering. It is not my intention to make you suffer more. So please tell me about your suffering, your difficulties. I'm eager to learn, to understand." And he says, "if you are honest, if you are true, they will open their heart and tell you.
And then you can practice compassionate, deep, listening. And during the process of deep listening, we can learn so much about our own perception and their perceptions." Love that. All right, Henry, do you want to say anything more about this kind of reciprocal nature of understanding that Thich Nhat Hanh is highlighting, right?
You know, as we offer it, we receive it as well. And then maybe how we can practice compassionate [00:14:00] listening for ourselves?
Henry: Yeah, so Parker Palmer, whose story I was talking about just a few moments ago, he created a series of retreats that were done for personal and professional renewal that was called courage work. That's still an ongoing thing. And years ago, I trained in this approach with him and others, in order to do the work they were doing but to do it with health professionals. That's, that was my thing. And one of the most important aspects of the work is what Parker also called deep listening. And it's very much like how it's described by Thich Nhat Hanh, which I just love. The kind of the similarity in the depth of these approaches. So I'm just going to describe very briefly because it's something we actually put tons of time and effort into kind of training folks to do over the course of these retreats.
It [00:15:00] was probably the focal point, really, of those multi day retreats. But here's the gist of it. It's pretty simple. You just listen with no agenda, with an open heart, and your mind is not even really in the game here. It's really mostly your heart. And so you're not trying to fix. You are not giving advice. You don't even offer any suggestions, certainly no judgment, that you know how to do things better than this other person does. And you also take great effort to keep your story out of it. So, for example, if when someone else is speaking, you are not thinking about how this relates to you, or your own story, or something that you can share.
"Oh, yeah, that happened to me," or, here's what I," you know, that kind of thing. You don't You just keep that completely out of it. [00:16:00] So, as you're listening, you might say nothing, like Parker's friend who just sat there. But if you do say something, you're limited to just one thing that you can do, which is to ask a question. You can't say anything else so no statements no stories just asking a question. But here's the thing about the question it has to be a real question. A real question is one that you actually don't think you know the answer to. And you're really curious. You want to know. So you don't try to lead them with your questions to what you think they should understand or do.
And you also don't ask a question that closes off discussion that they could answer with just yes or no. So it's a open ended, genuine question that you are simply curious about. So you have to sit in what's [00:17:00] often called "don't know" mind. I don't know. And I really am curious. What's going on with you? So, the beauty is You can do something very much like this for yourself, too, if you learn how to do this. The part of your mind that's capable of observing without being drawn into the fray can just sit and listen to this scared or angry part of yourself that is feeling troubled. And you might even ask yourself a genuine question from time to time, which just allows for this, this hurting part of yourself to unburden itself. If you do that, I find it helpful to have a journal or something that you can write things down on because you might, you might want to get it out. And if you can really do that, if you can get it out of your mind or your inner self and [00:18:00] onto the paper, there's a way in which it can cleanse you of it, where you can have a what's called a complete experience of it, which then allows you to let it go more easily.
Aimee: I love that. It's cathartic just listening to it, the process of how it will shake out. I'm also thinking about the question I often ask people, how I start the question --I've been trying to stop doing this-- is "don't you think that..." I'm like, why? Either I need to tell him what I think, because that's what I'm going to say.
Right. And I'm not really curious. And I think when I. When I reflect on what that question is to myself, it's. "Aimee, you should."
Henry: Exactly.
Aimee: and I want to, I want to soften on those. I don't want to ask. I don't want to ask you. Don't you think that? Let me tell you what I think. And I want to stop getting stuck in those [00:19:00] shoulds.
There's the invitation for understanding and sits. I'm just going to sits.
Henry: Yeah.
Aimee: That's beautiful, Henry. Thank you.So let's practice. Practice, practice, practice, and offer ourselves lots of compassion throughout it. So before we close, I want to share some motivation from the Dalai Lama. Motivation to stick with these practices.
Here it is. "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."
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