Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome to Joy
Lab.
Aimee Prasek: And I'm Aimee Prasek here at Joy Lab. We infuse science with soul to help you uncover your joy. And today we are talking about, um, of course, our element of gratitude and also envy. And it sounds weird, I know, to say that together. Why envy and gratitude? Because a really powerful strategy to reduce envy is to practice gratitude.
So before we start in, let me give a [00:01:00] definition of envy, if we need it. Actually, I think they are helpful. We'll see. this comes from researchers Parrott and Smith. Here it is. "Envy is an emotion which occurs when a person lacks another's supposed superior quality, achievement, or possession and either desires it or wishes that the other lacked it."
So I think the first part is pretty obvious. I think the last part is what gets me and that's helpful. Like the real sting of envy, wishing someone was worse off. Yeah. So let's get into it some more. I have two more kind of definitions because I think they'll highlight how gratitude, is so potent here when it comes to envy.
Here's what philosopher Immanuel Kant wrote in his book, The Metaphysics of Morals: "Envy is a propensity to view the wellbeing of others with distress, even though it does not detract from [00:02:00] one's own. It is a reluctance to see our own wellbeing overshadowed by another's because the standard we use to see how well off we are is not the intrinsic worth of our own wellbeing, but how it compares with that of others. Envy aims, at least in terms of one's wishes, at destroying others good fortune." Oof. I think, yeah, Kant kind of highlights there, I think, um, of this scarcity comparison that envy includes. Like, there's not enough goodness to go around, which I think is interesting. All right, last one, kind of a joke you may have heard.
"Of the seven deadly sins, only envy is no fun at all."
Henry: Those are great, Aimee, thanks. I think of envy as one of those potentially toxic emotions, kind of like shame. Which on the surface, it doesn't [00:03:00] seem to have any upside at all, like your, your joke, it just feels bad, no fun at all.
But, maybe there is a little upside, and let's get into that later on. I'm guessing that there's not a person listening who isn't personally familiar with envy, as in, we have all felt it, of course. When I'm caught up by envy, it feels corrosive to me. It's almost like there's this unhealthy chemical that just washes through my body. And it feels almost like a whole body reaction. Although for me, it's probably strongest in the chest and belly area as a lot of unpleasant emotions are. But I think the main point is that itfeels corrosive to me.
It just feels bad. And if it's left unchecked, I think envy is really a strong downward drag on, on someone's mood. [00:04:00] So the science backs us up pretty clearly. One study, amazing they could find this many people to participate, but one study had 18, 000 people that they were following and they found that strong feelings of envy cut their emotional wellbeing in half. That's a 50 percent hit on your wellbeing. That's just a really big effect. For a lot of us, if we get caught by really strong feelings of envy, there's also a double or even a triple effect. So like the study showed, envy can have a very direct impact on mood, making us feel worse right now in this moment. But if it continues on for a while, it can also make us withdraw from others, because we feel so bad, and then we feel even worse because we're isolated. And I think there's even a third way in which [00:05:00] envy gets us. And that is if we're self aware enough to know that we are feeling envy, that's the emotion we have, a lot of us feel ashamed by that because we identify envy as an emotion that's kind of small or petty. So that's three really strong effects on us that's pretty powerful stuff.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, I don't know how they, how they gathered their participants, recruited them, but I think that says a lot... 18, 000 people probably just random off the street. They were able to get some pretty good data on envy, right? This is a very common experience. so we, talk a lot about feeling our emotions, not rejecting them here at Joy Lab, not labeling them as bad.
I think that can be really hard with envy, for many of the reasons you just said, Henry. As I noted, envy in Christianity, I think in Islam too, is one of the seven deadly sins. It [00:06:00] shows up in so many other wisdom traditions as well. It's like nearly the worst thing you can experience. Socrates called it an ulcer of the soul.
Henry: Whoa, that's graphic
Aimee Prasek: Right? Yeah, it doesn't get more corrosive than that. I think. So, with all that judgment, I think it can be really hard to come to the acceptance that, okay, I am feeling envious and then take that information in. Bypass the shame that might rise up so that you can do something good with that energy.
It just has a lot of baggage. But, or, and I a hundred percent believe that none of us are green eyed monsters with souls full of ulcers. We might be stuck in envy, but above that we are resilient humans, all of us. And we can shake some of that baggage and judgment and let that envy actually be a fuel for good, or at [00:07:00] least neutral and maybe even show up less in the long run. So let's dig into it. Henry, I like how you get into these explanations of the biology or the sort of evolutionary explanations of specific emotions. So can you do that with envy so we can understand more of why, just naturally, this emotion can pop up for us?
Henry: Where are you gonna make me work on this one? Amy? this isn't as easy as some
Aimee Prasek: Are you envious that I have it easier in this episode? Fair. Fair point.
Henry: Well, yeah, because, you know, we talked about how envy makes us feel bad, but it is also considered socially undesirable. And yet, it is ubiquitous, isn't it? So, why would something be so built in, so hardwired into us, if there were no redeeming [00:08:00] value to it at all? I think that's the question for the evolutionary aspect of this. So, I think that there is a potential upside to envy. You might think of it as kind of an element of fairness about it. And remember that for evolution to have planted this so firmly into our psyches, there has to be some advantage to survival that comes from the feeling of envy. So, in that light, I think envy could be seen as sort of a sensor or an alarm that alerts us when we perceive there to be some unfair distribution of resources or skill or good fortune or something, but when someone seems to have more advantages than I do, and it just doesn't feel right. Now, envy alone is not going to help us to set things right. It's [00:09:00] just the signal that things may not be right. So maybe we have to listen and do something to change that. So does that make sense, Aimee? What do you think?
Aimee Prasek: I think, I think that really gets at it. Um, it's kind of a motivating force for fairness. I think that's an interesting interpretation. I'm just thinking of my own kiddo and how often and how early she would shout, "that's not fair!"
Henry: Yeah, really, where does that come from? It seems like it's
inborn.
Aimee Prasek: Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just a response to a kid having an ice cream cone that she didn't have. Right? So there's some envy working in there. And I just think, wouldn't it be great if sort of that's where our responses ended, right? We'd all just shout like toddlers. That's not fair. Cry perhaps and then have a sit down convo, maybe take some action or just do something else.
Forget about it. But let's talk about that. So we are adults. We do it differently. [00:10:00] There are two types of envy in the research that I think can help us understand the purpose of envy without shame and without sort of feeling like a green eyed monster. So these types are known as benign envy and malicious envy.
This is coming from researcher Dr. Niels van de Ven's work on envy in the show notes, as all of our citations are. So, listen in. This is how van de Ven defines these terms. I think we'll relate. "Benign and malicious envy are both unpleasant and frustrating experiences that arise from a realization that one lacks another's superior quality, achievement, or possession.
But benign envy results in a motivation to gain the coveted object for oneself as well. Whereas malicious envy results in a wish for the other to lose it." [00:11:00] So, I think it's super important to see that, what van de Ven is highlighting then with benign envy and what negative emotions aim to do for us, at least according to kind of the functional interpretation of emotions as we're getting into here, right? Negative emotions can help us identify an important problem. And then initiate a response to fix it or resolve it. But to do that skillfully, it takes practice, as we say around here, you know, working with them and then working out of them in such a way toward a bit more good. Um, it takes a lot of skill oftentimes, and that's what we all do here.
So, sorry, tangent, I think, more to your point on fairness, Henry, research on these different types of envy have found that if we perceive someone else's situation is better than ours and undeserved, then it's far more likely that we'll [00:12:00] tap into malicious envy. So we feel like it's not fair. We feel like they got lucky, they have it all, and key, there's nothing we can do about it.
So the problem is, in nearly every case, that's just not the truth. It's not quite so simple. Causes and consequences are more complicated than that, but getting stuck in envy reinforces those kinds of simplistic explanations.
Henry: Yeah, I find that to be a really useful distinction. It makes sense of why evolution might have set this up in our operating systems. You know, benign envy, as you just described it, maybe motivates us to take action to try to get what we perceive as missing so that we are not at a disadvantage in survival. So, some good can come from that. Malicious envy sounds more like that toxic emotion that I was referring to earlier, so... [00:13:00] and you know, I also like that you kind of referenced that maybe this is something like the way all the negative emotions work. You know, they're built in, they're there for a reason, and they're good and helpful, unless they go too far and totally take us over and then it then it gets to be destructive.
So I also like to remind myself that while evolution is powerful, it doesn't have the final word or maybe it's better to say that evolution isn't done with us yet.
You know, it hasn't like already ended when we became human beings as we
are now. So it's, still working on us, right?! And since we are conscious beings, we're also capable of cooperating with it. So in this case, we can see what's going on inside us. And then, we can choose how to respond to it. So, [00:14:00] like any other unpleasant emotion, it might be helpful to apply our mindfulness skills to it. So, even if we do that, we don't want to live in the state of envy because it does bring our mood down. Even benign envy doesn't feel good. Remember that. So let's start talking about how we can deal with this. How can we use gratitude, say, to help us get out of it?
Aimee Prasek: Let's talk about those antidotes, those skills. I think I'm gonna go in a bit of a weird direction for this. What's new?So, I think this will either resonate 100 percent with some listeners or it won't. So just we'll take an adventure through this. Okay, there is something called counterfactual thinking that I think really relates to envy in some interesting ways.
It can be helpful for some of us to really be aware of. I'll quote one of the key researchers in this [00:15:00] area, Dr. Neil Rose, as they describe counterfactual thinking. See if you can relate.
"Who among us has never wondered about what might have been, had some past choice been different? With perhaps a little more effort, you might have been an athlete, a doctor, maybe even a rock star. Who among us has never regretted choices made and actions taken? Maybe you should have studied harder in school, traveled more when you had the chance, or had the salmon for lunch instead of the pasta. And who has never pondered a lost love and imagined how passionate it might have been? Thinking about what might have been, about alternatives to our own past, is central to human thinking and emotion. Such thoughts are called counterfactual thoughts."
Henry: So that's what that
Aimee Prasek: Relatable. I love this. Let me tie it back to envy though.
So there's a [00:16:00] really interesting study that found that envy is often accompanied by the belief that we are unlucky in a scenario compared to the person we are envious of. And we also consider that person to be extremely lucky. Now, remember, with malicious envy, it really ignites when we feel someone is better off and it's undeserved. Like they're just lucky to have what they have.
And so envy and counterfactual thinking are kind of rooted in this belief and these stories that we construct in our heads that things could have been different. It could have been me. I think it' s really helpful to just notice if we're going down this counterfactual path, and if it's fueling malicious envy, you know, are we quickly making up a false story? And is that story one that diminishes the other person or [00:17:00] ourselves? And so if we can see that. Like, oh, yeah, this might not be true, or this is a counterfactual thought, and then if we can get really honest about ourselves and the world around us, then we can come to a much better solution than envy or resolution than envy, I think.
We can even use counterfactual thinking for good in this way, by more thoughtfully sort of imagining other causes and consequences that don't end up with us feeling inferior and the other person being an undeserving villain. We can kind of shift, I think, into benign envy. Or even something that motivates us, an action to take beyond that benign envy. Or we can just let the envy recede. And there's strong research to say that when us humans engage in a thoughtful process like that, like when we assess the information available to [00:18:00] us, when we're motivated to see truth, then we actually make quite accurate conclusions.
Which is kind of surprising for how initially illogical we can sometimes be that with a bit of time, we give ourselves a little bit of pause that we can work through something, and we can get it right. So, we may realize after a process like that, that there is some clear room for us to grow, maybe a skill that we can work on, or we can come to the realization that maybe it doesn't matter.
We just had a surge of pointless envy. Just reptilian green eyed monster came out for a bit. Or we could come out, full of uncertainty after a thoughtful process, which has way more potential for our own good, than envy, I think. And I'll link to some episodes in the show notes on where to go with uncertainty.
Henry: really interesting. It'd be [00:19:00] kind of fun to explore that counterfactual thinking some more sometime.
Aimee Prasek: I was thinking that, yeah, I want to go deep, deep into counterfactual thinking and its relationship to mood.
Henry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he made a interesting comment that, that it's really central to human thinking and emotion. And I kind of wonder what it, what does that mean, really? And what do we do with that? So, cool. I like your diversion there, Aimee.
Aimee Prasek: Oh, you're welcome.
Henry: So, as you know, one of my favorite teachers is Pema Chodron.
You know, I've talked about her a few times in other podcasts. And one of my favorite lessons from her is this really simple quote, "Our fundamental situation is joyful." Our fundamental situation is joyful. Now, the way she talks about that is not at all pollyannish.
This is not toxic positivity. [00:20:00] So, the way I understand her in this quote is that no matter what is going on around us, and no matter how we're feeling inside at any given moment, which might not be joyful, right, there is still this undercurrent of joyfulness. It's, it's like that's our baseline foundation. She uses a term that I think is referring to this, which is that this is our basic goodness. Which I also just love that image, that concept. So our basic goodness is there, even though it might be covered up in that moment by all kinds of layers of gunk, like malicious envy, for example.
So, we don't have to overreact to this.
We don't have to go to extreme [00:21:00] measures to fix ourselves, to root out this malicious envy or fix things, get them right so that, fairness is re-established. We are able to sit with this feeling until it passes, or we could practice an antidote that will help move the bad feeling out a lot more quickly.
And that's how I think of gratitude in this context. I think it is a direct antidote for envy.
Here's a really simple way to work with this. We talked earlier about how envy can be seen as a signal, telling us that something is off, that we feel someone else has an advantage over us perhaps. So we can use that signal as a prompt to move into a gratitude practice, which we can do right there, then and there in that moment. We can say something like this to ourselves, Oh, this is envy that I'm feeling. It [00:22:00] doesn't feel good. And I want to do something about it. And then you can just consciously turn your attention to something that you do feel good about. Here's a suggestion for that. You could just pick one thing. One very specific thing that is good for you about yourself. And you can be honest here, you don't have to make something up, because there are good things about yourself. But the really important thing is to be specific. So, for example, if what you come up with is to say, I am grateful for my health, you can get into a lot more detail about that.
I am grateful that I can walk two and a half miles in one stretch. I'm grateful that I fall asleep pretty quickly. I'm grateful that I can stretch down and almost reach my toes. Or that I, I only have to take one or two medications. Whatever it is, you get the picture. Find one [00:23:00] thing and then go deeply into it. And when you do that, it might only take 20 seconds, 30 seconds. Notice if it helps you uncover that sense of basic goodness again. And then notice if what you feel is different than when you were feeling caught up by envy.
Aimee Prasek: I really like how you're interpreting envy as a signal, or that, I don't know, that language just resonates with me, like as a signal for gratitude. Not just that we can use, gratitude like Advil for a envy headache or something. But that envy is like hunger pains for gratitude, like a signal for that fuel.
I think sometimes we get lost in a negative emotion. Like it's a signal that, yeah, okay. If something's wrong, but that, that it's craving more of that energy of negativity or [00:24:00] something, and we feed into that, but that on the other side of that, or alternatively, it is a signal to nourish ourselves in such a way.
What a wonderful way to approach those signals. How can I be good to myself in this moment? I am digging that, Henry.And I think the other piece of that is that, gratitude is really powerful, right? It's not just, you know, like a Band Aid or something, but it is a powerful force and it is way more powerful, a change agent than envy is, quite honestly, I would say.
And we'll get into that more in the next episode, I think. And those of you in Joy Lab, I hope that you'll be feeling that through this month. So with that, I think there's a quote from Voltaire that I'd like to close with, and I've offered it before, and I'll do it again because I love it. And it's, it's just perfect for this conversation, I think.
So here it is. [00:25:00] "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well."
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