Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: And I'm Aimee Prasek. And we're here to help you uncover more of your joy, right? That's the point of this podcast. I just want to put that out right away because maybe we're going to be talking about some interesting stuff as well, but it is also 2025. The 1st episode, Henry and I are together to wish you this happy new year.
And we've had some big updates in several of our past episodes. This is a really exciting new year for [00:01:00] us all together here at the podcast and the program. I guess maybe the first important piece of news, if you've missed it, the Joy Lab program is now open. So head over to joylab.coach to join us.
Henry: Thanks, Aimee.
Aimee: Yeah.
Henry: I would like to remind our listeners of a key foundation of Joy Lab. If you want more joy in your life, you don't want to leave it to chance. It might be there one moment, and then gone the next. What we're trying to build is something much more enduring. Something that doesn't depend on what happens on the outside. Because it's very unreliable. So, we see joy as a skill. Something that can be developed and practiced. And made solid over time. And also something to be done in community. It is an internal practice. That's true. [00:02:00] But let's learn from all of the wisdom traditions and from all of the findings in science that real lasting growth and change happens best when we are connected, not when we're in isolation. So we designed the Joy Lab program to offer these things. Every week, there's a new practice to help deepen the element of joy for that month. We're constantly working behind the scenes to help create a vibrant, supportive online community to help you stay on that path to a more joyful life. And we even design our weekly podcasts to help strengthen the deeper work of the program. So if you like the podcast, we think you will love the program. Please check it out.
Aimee: Yeah. God, sign me up. That was awesome. Thanks, Henry
Henry: thought you already were signed up
Aimee: Sign me up again. So yeah, in this month of January, here at the [00:03:00] podcast and the program, we focus on our element of inspiration. And we wanted to dig a bit into what's called the happiness paradox at the start of this new year, because, I think it's really helpful information as we come into a season of inspiration, perhaps resolutions, this conversation can help us put our goals and focus in the most beneficial place.
So, the happiness paradox, let me explain it. It's this really interesting phenomenon. Where if you value happiness to a high degree, so you see it as extremely important and something that needs to be actively pursued at all times, then as your desire or value for it continues to surge at those high levels, the worse your outcomes are for emotions in the short term.
And then also for long term health outcomes, like well-being and life [00:04:00] satisfaction. I know, paradox. So I think it can tell us that much of the pressures around happiness or manifesting happiness are surprisingly unhelpful.Like in their extreme, right? We're told happiness is all that matters. The pursuit of happiness.
How could that pursuit be bad for us? But when we sit with it a bit more. I think it really starts to make sense. I'll give a few reasons. When we strive for happiness, it can position happiness as external and future focused. So that it's something that exists out there. It doesn't exist right now in our own sort of environment.
And that once we snag it, we have to hold onto it so tightly, it creates a kind of rigidity for happiness. And with that rigidity. with a hyper focus on happiness, it also [00:05:00] means that how you may actually be feeling may be sad, grief stricken, frustrated, that those things are not okay. I think that's the kicker.
So we have this overvaluing of happiness. Um, and then in that overvaluing, it really demands that we stuff down or ignore other emotions that we don't feel are as good, are as valuable, and if we feel those things, we can perceive it as a failure. And I think as we talk about it here, right, those negative emotions are part of our wiring as well.
They have value in moderation. And if we see them as failures, we are just setting ourselves up for failure. So, Henry, I want to hear more of your thoughts on this paradox and maybe how you see it showing up.
Henry: Well, it makes a lot more sense now after the the last part of your explanation. So while I was listening to you, though, I [00:06:00] couldn't help but think but notice, another paradox,
and I wonder if anybody else caught it. So we just pitched the Joy Lab program, right? Because we value joy at a high degree as something important enough to be actively pursued. And then you shared with us the research that seems to say that's a bad idea.
Aimee: We do this a lot, don't we?
It's why curiosity is one of our elements of joy.
Henry: Right. Because you know, if we value it too much, then you're going to have a worse outcome. So how to make sense of that?
Aimee: Right, right.
Henry: Well, I have a couple of thoughts and I'd love to hear yours
Aimee: Yeah, yeah.
Henry: So I'm really glad we're talking about this though, because like you, I think it's just really important information. The first thought that comes to mind is that whenever something is pursued with a quality of grasping, it [00:07:00] can make you feel worse. So we see this all the time with material things like, like money or items. If we grasp too tightly, no matter how much we have, we are still going to feel miserable. There is simply never enough to fill the void if there's a big void there. But this can happen with pursuits we think of as more virtuous, too. I see this frequently with clients, for example, who are trying to live a healthier lifestyle. And they sometimes become so rigid around their food choices, let's say, that it just takes the joy out of eating. Or exercise, you know, they exercise so much that they keep hurting themselves, like I myself have done several times in my life. Although I'm getting better at that. But the lesson here, I think, is to hold it lightly. You can work hard on something, that's, [00:08:00] working hard is not the issue, like, cultivating the elements of joy, but you can do so without striving, without that element or that sense of striving or becoming driven by it. And then as soon as you realize, if you, if you can sense that you're clenching or that you're becoming rigid in your approach, then you can just see that for what it is and step back and kind of refocus. So when we're grasping, that's a sign that we feel there's not enough to go around, that we ourselves are not enough. Grasping is stressful, and the more stress, the worse our outcomes. I think that explains to a large degree that, that research.
Aimee: Absolutely.
Henry: Another thought that I have though is that we see joy and happiness in Joy Lab here, we see them as being quite different things. By our definition, at least, happiness is more of an emotion, more fleeting, whereas joy [00:09:00] is more of a constant inner state. So, happiness doesn't last, joy does. It's enduring. Happiness depends more on circumstances, being good, being favorable, and also on us doing the right things, what we think are the right things to make those happen, and I think that's one reason for this happiness paradox you described is this idea that if we just do everything right, we should be happy. I hear this a lot, and our belief is that we can have joy no matter what is happening around us. Joy can exist side by side, simultaneously, with grief, with loss, with illness. They're not mutually exclusive. So there's a steadiness to joy, a reliability that just holds us up even when it feels like things are falling [00:10:00] apart. And it does not come from striving. It comes more from allowing, not from grasping, but from letting go. And these are sometimes hard concepts to really, really understand, but I like the way you put it in the introduction. We're here to help you uncover joy, because it's already there. And to me, that's the real paradox.
Aimee: Yeah, I completely agree with your points, our definition of joy versus happiness. And that the happiness paradox doesn't suggest that we do not pursue good things or growth in our lives. I think it reminds us that there is work to do when it comes to growth and at the same time, like you said, we can't hold it too rigidly.
even hold rigid the path we think to get there and then what it's going to look like [00:11:00] on the other side. Again, that's a big reason why we focus on our 12 elements of joy as well. We're not trying to create a robotic state of abstract happiness, eternal sunshine of the spotless mind is coming to me in that movie.
That's not helpful as the movie portrays and as the happiness paradox notes. Instead, these elements of joy help us give attention and practice to these really tangible positive emotions and inner states that we can build more of. That feels good. And it's not in an effort, like you said, to ignore or reject any other emotion that rises up like sadness or grief, but as a really grounded strategy to nourish and train our systems to open up and to take in the good as well. And then to also help us navigate those more, you know, quote, negative states that are just as much part of this life and that [00:12:00] offer value as well.
So I think I want to, I want to share a recent experience that helped me really tap into this feeling of joy amidst pain and this desire to pursue growth. I hope it's helpful, because I think this paradox can get confusing as well. So I kind of touched it, this paradox, and I want to share it. So my sister and I, along with our kiddos, went to California recently to visit my 95 year old grandma, my daughter's great grandma.
And now I'll give a little bit more background, actually. So the day before that, I was telling my mom about this trip. And she has Alzheimer's, so I knew she wouldn't really be able to grasp the trip, but as I told her that we were going out to see grandma, my dad's mom, your husband's mom, I told her, she just stared blankly at me.
And then she asked, who's your dad? [00:13:00] And I just felt like a punch in the stomach when she said that. But I thought I have too much to do right now. I can't feel sad. I need to get ready for this trip. So I just kind of stuffed it down. And so, we catch a flight the next day to see my grandma, my dad's mom, and she was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Not a real surprise at 95, but nonetheless, the day, or the last day that we were there, she was commenting on how she did not enjoy the people who came to visit her a few days ago. Which was us. They're sitting there like, oh, God, do I tell her? No, that's not helpful. But I'm like, offended kind of. And so, and I also wanted to tell her we were there.
We were like, she was wanting us to be there more, but we were, but then she didn't like who was there. So I just was, [00:14:00] anyway, but she knew, on this last day that we are visiting that it was us and it was a great visit and you know, we're saying our goodbyes, we turned to leave and she says, she yells out to us,
"Tell your mom and dad hi!" And again, it was a punch in the stomach for me. I hadn't heard that in 25 years. My dad had died 25 years ago. Her son had died 25 years ago. Nobody really tells me to say hi to my mom anymore because she doesn't really know. So I'm sitting on the plane heading home, kind of crying in the window seat, just kind of replaying all of this and feeling really sad.
And so if I was caught in the happiness paradox, I'd dismiss that pain, that sadness, right? Kind of like I had done the day before. Which was okay. I needed to pack. I needed to get my stuff together. [00:15:00] But if I continue to stuff it in the corner, trying to be happy, those corners get full. And that's a problem.
I have filled those corners before and you can make a hoarder's house pretty quickly, full of stuffed down, sadness and anger. So I knew that wasn't what I needed to do. And I think here's my point. I knew that I could handle it. And so often, I think that's how joy shows up. It's like, it's not a permanent state of happiness.
It's not a perma party. I think joy shows up so often, like a calm, grounding voice reminds us deep, like deep in our bones. That reminds us, you got this. You can do hard things. You are connected. You are enough. You are worthy. You are loved. And that's the [00:16:00] ground I think I needed to stand on when I was wading into the sadness.
Because as I waded through it, I realized that it was hard to see my mom and my grandma dealing with Alzheimer's. That's sort of the immediate sadness. But it was also about me, too, as I kind of got a little deeper. I realized I was sad because I was losing my role as a kid. You know, my grandma was forgetting me.
My mom was forgetting me. My dad was gone. So those relationships were going away. And my role as a kid was going away. And that was sad. And amidst that, I still felt loved. I still felt a sense of connection. And that to me is joy. I was not happy, but there was something supporting that sadness.
And that was the joy. And I could tap into that along with the grief and the sadness and the gratitude for those relationships kind of [00:17:00] rose up as well, curiosity for how relationships are transforming in my life, um, inspiration for my own parenting roles. So I think joy allows the diversity of mixed emotions to also rise up instead of that monoculture of happiness that forces everything down.
And that's the power of joy. I think it grounds us, expands us, and it's in all of us.
Henry: That is such a beautiful story, Aimee. I just want to take it in for a moment.You know, it's such a great, such a great example of what we're talking about here, that real joy lives side by side with real sadness, real grief, you know, I imagine you wouldn't have wanted someone to try to take that sadness from you on the airplane, you know, you wouldn't have wanted someone to say, [00:18:00] oh, hey, are you okay? You know, it's not, it's going to be all right, just to, because you, there's just some, you just needed to do that.
Aimee: You needed to, to feel that. It's just beautiful.So yeah, this is exactly what we're what we're trying to point to. And we can all do this. That's what we train to do here, right?
Henry: yeah,
Yeah.
So, you know, it's just such a good example of, of how healing and growth can come from fully feeling what you're feeling,
even if that, even if it feels hard, even if there's loss in it, and, and grief is such a good example. I'm sure that there's just many layers of grief and what you're, you know, losing your sense of being a kid, losing the grandmother you knew, your mom that you knew, there's still grief around the loss of your dad.
I mean, it's just so many layers, but to be able [00:19:00] to fully grieve it, so you just don't have to carry it along with you forever.
That's just such a beautiful thing. And I think, I think that's what we're meant to do with these kind of,what we call negative emotions, these hard, heavy emotions that we just, we don't want to push them out of our life.
We don't need to manufacture them because there's plenty of opportunities for them to come up, but we don't need to push them away either.
And also, there's a time, it's such a good reminder, there's a time for having those deeply felt experiences alone, on your own. And there's also an aspect of doing this together, not in isolation, but, I mean, you share this experience with your sister, with your daughter, with your, your sister's child.
And, and you're sharing it with us, which is, which [00:20:00] we're, I'm very grateful, very grateful for. This reminds me of the concept of the thin spaces that, um, the Celtic mythology or spirituality talks about that I think it's just something we need to remind ourselves of. And what the thin space means to me is a time in life when there's an opening. You know, and it can come from all kinds of things, but most definitely it can come through this experience that you just described. I mean, just listening to you, I could sense that there was a deep opening in that. I mean, I feel it myself. And it's that, it's as if the veil is lifted momentarily between our usual day to day selves and having a deeper [00:21:00] experience of the sacred. Because, to me, that's where, that's where joy resides. It's in the great vastness. And I think an encounter with loss, fear, or great sadness can really open us up to it. So, thank you.
Aimee: Well, thanks for listening, everyone, even if you just didn't have a choice. But I think, yeah, you're right, Henry. There's something beautiful in many ways about those deeply felt emotions when we have that foundation to also explore them and navigate them and make our way through them, not get stuck in them.
And I hope that maybe there's some inspiration for you in this conversation, um, to [00:22:00] explore exactly what it is that you are experiencing and to do it with the knowledge and trust that you are supported. You are connected. You are loved. And you can tap into that joy. We all have that within us. And I'm really grateful that we can gather together here at the podcast and the program to uncover it.
So I want to close with some wisdom from Joseph Campbell. Maybe sort of summing up what we do here through the podcast and program, here's what he said. "Find a place inside where there's joy and the joy will burn away the pain."
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