Welcome to Joy Lab!: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy, even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: And I am Aimee Prasek. So we are talking about resilience this month and getting into these kind of specific experiences that can really zap our resilience tanks. and that are sometimes related to minor depression or clinical depression. And the one for today is rumination. That's the feeling of being trapped in your own thoughts when you [00:01:00] go over and over the same worries, regrets, or anxieties or what you should have said to your cousin when he called you, you, didn't say it, and you feel bad and you go over the theater in your mind of all the things that should have happened. And then you can't sleep that night and you have to take your daughter to the bus and you're feeling a little, I'm describing my last night, um.So yes, I'm sure everybody can, share their own experiences with rumination, I ruminate. I ruminate so much less than I used to. I wanna say that. And when I ruminate, it does not last as long. So that's what we wanna tackle, I think, how to do it less and how to shake it off quicker when it happens.
Henry: Yes. Wow. We are hitting our stride, Aimee. We are in our wheelhouse.
Aimee: Yes.
Henry: I am also an expert, ruminator.
Aimee: Oh, pleasure to meet you.
Henry: I'm probably better than [00:02:00] you even, 'cause I've been practicing it longer.
Aimee: Love a rumination contest. Absolutely. I'm up for it.
Henry: but as you said, we all do this to some degree or other.
Henry: I think anyone who's lived long enough can relate to what you describe Aimee about laying awake in the middle of the night replaying the same thing over and over in your mind.
Aimee: Yeah.
Henry: So if this is just part of being human, why does it matter? Why talk about it?
Henry: Well, it is something we're all familiar with, but there's rumination and then there's rumination.
Aimee: Yes.
Henry: Like everything else, it exists on a spectrum. Most of the time it's pretty benign and it just goes away on its own. If you don't fuel it, it just dissipates.
Henry: But it can also be kind of toxic. I mean, it can be outright toxic.
Aimee: Yeah.[00:03:00]
Henry: It might start out as a symptom of something else, but if it takes off, runaway rumination can create its own set of problems. Like interfering with sleep or it can worsen anxiety or even depression and it can also lead, I think, be one of the reasons that people turn to alcohol or drug abuse. It's like anything to get a break from this mind run rampant.
Aimee: Absolutely.
Henry: I also think that rumination is an important sign for us as to what's going on in the brain and it can give us a window into potential strategies or even treatments that could be really, really helpful. I think we'll get into that a little bit more as we talk.
Aimee: Yeah, let's get into it. So there are a zillion reasons why we ruminate. Some of them are good reasons, some of them
Aimee: are hilariously terrible. You know, you'll [00:04:00] kind of wake up out of a rumination and be like, what? Why am I ruminating on this? So it is not helpful to sort of pick out those irritations and causes necessarily one by one. We have to get a bigger picture of this, a more efficient solution if we wanna get some freedom back in our mind. One way to do that is to get to know your default mode network.
Aimee: I know, I bet you didn't think I was gonna say that.
Aimee: So this is, Henry, I want you to go into all the goodies after me on this, but I'll explain,
Aimee: explain the DMN. So default mode network, your DMN. DMN is, uh, this network of many brain regions scientists kind of discovered it, I think interestingly, when they saw these consistent areas lighting up when they were doing brain imaging research and they'd have their control group and they'd have their experimental group. And so the [00:05:00] control group, when they were not doing anything, they weren't doing any tasks, usually their eyes were closed, they were at rest, they weren't focusing on anything. This consistent area, these consistent areas would light up in the brain, so, hmm, kind of made them think. So you can think of the DMN as really what gets activated when you're daydreaming or recalling memories or when you're just kind of people watching and making up stories in your head or zoning out when someone is talking and your mind just kind of starts wandering around. And the DMN is not bad at all. We don't understand it fully either. The way we zone out, or have these times of what's called resting wakefulness, sometimes, when the DMN seems to be more active, it doesn't mean for a moment that we're all thinking the same thoughts or feeling the same emotions or experiences.
Aimee: So activation of DMN doesn't have to be bad. However, [00:06:00] what seems to be more clear is that the DMN is more inward focused or inwardly focused. This network seems to activate when we are paying attention to our own little world, telling our own little stories, engaging in self-talk, almost like a narrator.
Aimee: And that's great in the background, a little narrator to help us reflect and make sense of the world. But when it's too active, when it's too loud, then it can become a real problem and lock us in. Actually, sometimes I think of the DMN as, the narrator in the Truman Show at the, at the beginning, it's like super helpful, and then it starts to get a little too intense, right?
Aimee: It wants to take the wheel and start controlling everything. Um, So it can keep us, if we're getting stuck in it, if it's overactivated, keep us spiraling and overthinking, reliving past mistakes, worrying about things we can't change. Constantly analyzing [00:07:00] ourselves. And we start to ruminate and we get sort of stuck in those thought loops that don't go anywhere. So that's why overactivation of the DMN seems to be associated with, rumination and other mental health disorders. Henry, do you want to say more about the DMN and rumination?
Henry: Sure. I, by the way, I love the, the reference to the Truman Show narrator. I had not thought of that.
Aimee: I mean,
Aimee: it's. I think so. I mean, if you get really, if you're really into the Truman Show, you'd probably have some arguments about that, but I think it's good. Yeah,
Henry: Well, anybody who's really into the Truman Show, call Aimee and
Aimee: I love that movie. It does speak to the DMN for me and other psychological freedom, but go on free will, you know.
Henry: So the DMN and rumination.So to me it, it goes back to what I was saying before about rumination existing on a spectrum. Okay? [00:08:00] So on the low end, which is what I think you're getting at with when you talk about the default mode network and kind of daydreaming and you know, sort of inward focused.
Henry: I mean that's really benign and I think there's even evidence that it is a helpful thing to do. It's almost as if it, it might help keep those different areas of the brain networked with each other, you know, kind of keeps 'em online, so to speak.
Henry: And so all these different nodes are communicating with one another.
Henry: Even if it's meaningless, it's still kind of important to keep that flow of energy going. So letting your mind wander is almost like giving your brain a gentle little aerobic workout. Your mind wanders and you bring it back, it wanders again, and you bring it [00:09:00] back. It's as if you're strengthening your mindfulness muscles in a really gentle, organic kind of way.
Henry: Now, another way I, I think of this default mode network is as sort of an energy grid. Let's say it's an energy grid for a small city. So when you're daydreaming or recalling pleasant memories, it's like the grid when it's off peak. Easy peasy. There's no strain on the system. All of the needs are being met, and there's even a little extra energy in the system.
Henry: The maintenance workers at this point, even have a chance to go in and do some routine repair work. But then imagine it's the peak of the summer. It's an unusually hot day. Everybody's cranking up their air conditioners full blast at the [00:10:00] same time. So to meet the need, then all the backup systems are activated.
Henry: The energy grid is super charged up, and there is too much energy for the system as it's designed, and then things start to go haywire. Maybe even to the point that you get these rolling blackouts, you know?
Henry: So that's how I think of toxic rumination. The specifics of what you're thinking about don't even matter.
Henry: What matters is that there's simply too much energy in the system. It's overactivated, as you said, Aimee.
Aimee: Yeah. I like that it because it takes the judgment of what the thoughts are away, and it's just like the overactivation.
Aimee: Um, I think that's important. There is some good research. We, we should talk about this in a later episode on positive kind of mind wandering like you just described as, as like training for mindfulness, [00:11:00] but also just, and then as you described as a break, like a pause from just like constant over consumption. So I love thinking of this rumination on a spectrum.And then as like too much energy. So let's get into, some ways we can put the brakes on the rumination. If it's too high. Maybe we'll do four, four ways. You don't have to do them all. We're gonna give you ideas. So maybe pick one or two at the most to start with. So I'll start. First idea, do something that you can't do on autopilot. So this just requires us to activate really what are more task oriented areas of the brain. And it can almost be like a switch, a light switch for rumination. So we can turn on the more focused attention areas. Like the ventral medial prefrontal cortex.
Aimee: We talked about that in a few, episodes ago.
Henry: [00:12:00] Did we?
Aimee: We did. I'll link to it. It's good stuff with savoring. Yeah, I know we talk about so much here. But, so when those are active, those more task oriented areas, the ruminating areas can get a break. They can go dark for a bit.And so for me actually, cooking with a recipe is really helpful.
Aimee: So cooking something new that you have to focus on. You could play a group game like a game that you have to be engaged in takes a little bit of cognitive effort. Uh, something that you like or at least don't hate, and that you have to focus on. And then a second tip here, or idea is to shift from why me to what now? So when we ruminate, it's usually a looping sentence, at least in my head, that starts with, why didn't I or why did I? And then we just keep moving it through again and again. So try for a moment when you realize you're looping to [00:13:00] give your narrator something else to work with, which can be what now? So if there's something worth mulling over in your brain, then you'll maybe get an answer to what now? if instead the answer is that there's nothing you can do about it right now, there truly are no, apologies to give or lessons to learn, then you can start to close that loop, to give an end to the story. And the more you kind of shake yourself out of those, why mes with some what nows I I think the less often they come back with that, why me?
Aimee: Why me? I wanna give a warning. Don't let your narrator go down a new path from why me to what should have been, which is just the same rumination road with another question instead, what now is very present focus, it's action oriented, and it gives you back some responsibility and power.
Henry: Hmm. Yeah. Thanks for that warning. Those narrators are tricky. [00:14:00] Tricky.
Aimee: Yeah. Yeah. Give them a new script. Absolutely.
Henry: So I'm gonna focus on taking some of that excess energy out of the system.
Henry: To try to cool those overheated circuits and calm that overactivated brain. So here is the most straightforward thing I can think of. Ignore it. Don't give it one ounce of your attention. Now, Aimee, you, you gave us a way to do this indirectly by doing something so absorbing that your mind simply can't ruminate at the same time.
Aimee: Yeah.
Henry: I'm suggesting that you can do it really directly by refusing to engage in it. Now, I'll admit this is a little tricky. You have to know that you are not your thoughts.
Aimee: Mm.
Henry: You have to be able to stand back [00:15:00] and observe your thoughts, which are not you. Now, this is actually not hard to do, but you have to you have to have had the experience of doing it
Henry: so you get it, you really get it, which I think of as kind of like riding a bike. Takes a little doing to get there, but once you do it, it makes all the sense in the world and it's actually kind of easy. So this is a really good way to deal with the 3:00 AM rumination session. Which, if you're a ruminator like I am and there's too much energy in your default mode network at 3:00 AM if you're awake, your brain is going to ruminate.
Aimee: Absolutely.
Henry: So let it, let it do that, but don't feed it by believing that it's important. 'Cause I guarantee you that whatever you [00:16:00] are ruminating about at 3:00 AM is not as important as you think it is. So don't try to stop it. Don't forcibly try to stop it because that'll just feed the fire too. You just let it run its course and you do,
Henry: you could do something like Aimee suggested earlier, like, like, you know something tactile. Feel the bedsheets touch your skin, place your hand over your chest. Focus your attention on that, and the rumination will just gradually kinda wear itself out. No effort. You just allow it to kind of do its thing and allow the energy to, to kind of run its course.
Aimee: I love that. I'm imagining, my daughter like Halloween candy or something. When you got a big stash of it and they keep asking you, Can I have another piece of candy? Can I have another piece of candy? Can I have another piece of candy? And it's like, I know I'm gonna say no. And now I'm just gonna say no 'cause I don't wanna engage with this.
Aimee: So "Can I have [00:17:00] another piece of--" "No, thank you. Nope. Nope." And pretty soon she stops asking, right?
Henry: Yeah, that's a, that's a, very good, very good metaphor.
Aimee: So like a child with a Snickers bar. No, you cannot eat it. I'm not gonna, no, I'm not gonna give it to you. Don't need to feed it.
Henry: Oh, well, here's the second option,
Henry: which is to get it out of your mind and onto a piece of paper. So in a way, this seems to be kind of the opposite of what I just said, which was to ignore it. Here you're giving it your attention, but you're doing it in with the express purpose of getting it out of your head.
Henry: Even though it's not that important, your brain thinks that it is and it will keep chewing on it as long as it thinks it's important to do so. So if you go to your journal or just grab a piece of paper and write down everything you can think of [00:18:00] that you need to say about this, then the brain's work is done.
Henry: It can rest
Henry: and so can you.
Aimee: I love that. I love that there's two options here. That are
Aimee: Very different.
Aimee: that you just gave, which is really helpful, when it feels like you just need to get it out or you can just say no. Right. Which is it? I do both, I think, and I think depending on what the rumination is presenting might require one or the other for you and you'll know.
Henry: You know, I, I, I also do both. And if it happens at like three or 4:00 AM literally, I usually just let it run its course and kind of dissipate unless I think it actually is kind of important. And then I might get, get up and write it down and get it outta my head so that if it, if it something I buy into that, okay, I might wanna actually remember this in the morning.[00:19:00]
Henry: That kind of helps me to let it go.
Aimee: I love that. So you're kind of honoring this, well, this might be important. This might be something I want to take and do something with or learn something from.
Aimee: You know what I, so when I do write things down, after I fill a journal, so I'll have one for that kind of writing. You know what I do with that journal?
Henry: What
Aimee: I burn it,
Henry: you do?
Aimee: I burn it, I throw it in a fire.
Henry: Ooh,
Aimee: Sometimes I'll do page by page if I'm like, this is not important.
Aimee: Immediately I know.
Aimee: I think there's something about burning those thoughts that helps me release them. So,
Henry: Nice.
Aimee: last thing, if you want,Just get a raging bonfire going of your unimportant ruminative thoughts that just don't need to go anywhere and burn 'em.if it's burn season, my husband is a firefighter. I feel like I should give a disclaimer, but just follow the rules, have a hose nearby. All right. Well, I, I hope [00:20:00] this was helpful. I think this is such gosh, yes, a universal topic for us to dig into. I hope these strategies, something has resonated with you.
Aimee: Let us know how they work. Give them a try. So I think I wanna end us with some wisdom from Pema Chödrön. That I think we can remember perhaps when rumination starts to rev up. Here it is. "You are the sky. Everything else, it's just the weather."
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